[00:00:15] Dr. Brandon Crawford: Everyone, welcome back to the "Longevity Formula" podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Brandon Crawford, and today I'm joined by Dr. Greg Jones, a naturopathic physician, longevity and regenerative medicine specialist, and the founder and medical director of Enovative Wellness Center in Phoenix.

Before entering medicine, Dr. Jones spent two decades in the United States Navy working with the extraordinarily complex systems of nuclear submarines. He now brings that engineering mindset into healthcare, focusing on peptide medicine, hormone optimization, regenerative therapies, metabolic health, and what he calls health engineering.

He is also the host of the "Optimization Academy" podcast and serves on the board of the American Association of Naturopathic Physicians. Dr. Jones, very impressive. Thank you, sir, for joining us here today

[00:01:08] Dr. Greg Jones: Thank you, Brandon. Appreciate you having me on. You know, it's funny when you read the, the bio and you say 22 decades i- in the Navy, it makes me feel older than I really am. So we gotta find a better-- maybe we say like 20 years on the dot. So, somewhere

[00:01:23] Dr. Brandon Crawford: looking great.

[00:01:24] Dr. Greg Jones: thank you.

[00:01:25] Dr. Brandon Crawford: You're looking great. So apparently what you're doing is working so that's amazing. But y- you know, let's kinda get into that story of your time in the Navy and now you're where you're at now. What, what happened? What's going on? What's your background? How'd you end up where you're at?

[00:01:40] Dr. Greg Jones: So, dude, I'll be 52 this month, and so when people ask me, like, your background, I'm like, "How much time you got, man?" It's like I gotta like... It's like I break out the scroll, like in the old like medieval movies and things like that where we start. So for me, grew up in Chicago and I actually was a horrible high school student.

I was a horrible student. I had no interest in school, and I was a smart kid, but I was just a non- very unmotivated kid. There's some things that drove that, right? Which for the sake of time, I won't go into that. But long story short, barely graduated high school. But here's the deal at the time, they my high school made everyone take the A- It was like they, they put you in the lo- in the lunch room, everyone's taking this ASVAB test, every single one of you, right?

And no matter what, I don't know how they forced you to do it, I took the test, and I did really, really well on it, like in the 90s. I don't remember what the exact score was. And so fast-forward to graduation, I didn't have a plan. I was just like living the just pure knucklehead, man, I have to admit. And so, the recruiters started calling, right?

And so I'll even give you a little bit more quick backstory, man. What drove all this, I was hanging out one night in the park with some friends. We'll air quote that, "friends." And long story short, one of the guys had something going on with a guy across the street, and words were exchanged. I'm sitting in the park.

Next thing you know, gunfire erupts, as, as they would say in the news, right? And so at this point, I'm running for my life here, and I just got home, and I was like, "This isn't me. This isn't what I wanna do. I don't even wanna be around this, man." And so I actually started... Like, I was, "Wait a minute, I got all these..."

Like, I didn't apply to college, and I had all these recruiters calling, and I was like, "Let me listen to what they gotta say." And so, you know, each branch called, and it's so funny, man. And like, the Marines, they called, and the recruiter was doing the Marine thing. He was basically yelling at me like, "Oh, do you think you got what it takes to join the Marines?"

And I'm kinda like, "I don't know. Don't sound like it." And so then the Navy guy calls, and he's like, "Look, man, you did really good on this test. We got this nuclear program. We're gonna offer you this much money for a signing bonus and this much if you graduate school." And to a 17-year-old, you start saying...

And this is like '91, right? You start saying 1,500 and 10,000 to a se- it's like, "Sign me up. Where do I sign? When can I leave?" Right? And so, you know, went to join the Navy and I was on a s- you know, did the nuclear enlisted pathway, and I was doing pretty well there. And my executive officer, he's like, "Hey, you should apply to this officer program."

I had no intent of doing it. I was gonna do my four, five, six years, get out. And he kept bugging me. I was like, "Okay, dude, if you-" Promise you're not gonna ask me again, I'll do this application. And I thank this g- you know, Commander Pat Bushong, man. I'll never forget him because I'll... It was more of like, I gotta get this guy off my back.

I'm gonna apply to this college program, and I got accepted, and that was, man, like, that got everything started. So I ended up going to college, graduating doing eng- you know, engineering degree, going back to the Navy, did nuclear engineering again, and that would fast-forward to retirement. So that's the Navy portion of the st- story.

Now, fast-forwarding how I got into medicine, I retired and I took a job here in Arizona, and it was a great job, man. I was with Honeywell Aerospace doing quality engineering, traveling. Wasn't a high-stress job, but I didn't feel really fulfilled and I f- and to be honest with you, man, I fell into this... I don't know how to describe it, man, this funk where I was like, I'm working, I'm doing well, but I just wasn't happy, and I felt like I was drinking more, and I felt like I just wasn't making good decisions.

And looking back at it, I was depressed. You know, looking back at it, right? I just felt like the... It wasn't ha- just if I look at what I know now, it's like, oh my God, I was literally depressed, man. I just wasn't getting help and I wasn't meeting that problem head-on. And so I was like, you know, I'm not happy, and I thought about what I wanted to do in life, what have I always wanted to do, and I wanted to do something in medicine.

And so quick, I know this is a long story, man, but you asked, Brandon. And so

[00:05:19] Dr. Brandon Crawford: good. You're good

[00:05:21] Dr. Greg Jones: then I was like, "Oh, well, I wanna go to pharmacy school," because my mother died of cancer and I just, I didn't know anything about functional medicine, natural medicine, and so the thought process is like, there has to be a drug out there that could have helped her, 'cause that's what I knew.

And so I started going the path of pharmacy school, and quickly as I was doing the prereqs that I was missing and actually talking to pharmacists, and these are more retail pharmacists, by the way. They were just like, "Ah," you know, they didn't seem like they were like this is a good thing to do per se.

And I was like, "What am I gonna do?" And I... A friend of a friend, she graduated from the naturopathic medical school. I went to the graduation. It was like the heavens opened up, and it was like, "Oh, this is what I wanna do," and I never looked back. I never looked back, man.

[00:06:02] Dr. Brandon Crawford: The origin story is always so important because it sets the stage, describes your foundation and, uh, so I, I appreciate it. It's very good. I had similar, kinda similar pathway where I was accepted to two different pharmacy schools. I was trying to decide which one to go to.

I prayed about it, literally heard a voice in my head. God said, "No, you're not going to pharmacy school," and I ended up going a whole different route. So, I mean, I totally get it. And so now you've ventured down this path of naturopathic medicine. What are your primary focuses in naturopathy? What does that look like for you?

[00:06:33] Dr. Greg Jones: Okay, so this is like origin story number two, all right? So, while in school, I first thought I was gonna do oncology, right? Just 'cause that, that anchor to my mother passing away was there. And then halfway through I was like, "Oh, I think I wanna do cardiology," right? It's probably... I don't know if it's like this for you in med school.

You think about what you think you wanna do, and as you get further along towards graduation, you realize there's a whole new thing. So the backstory is I hurt my back working out. And I, throughout the Navy playing sports, I never got hurt. Had this crazy back injury, man. It was probably the worst sciatica.

Like, I'm literally curled up in a ball in the back of class. I'm limping for months on end. And I was like, "This is horrible." And I started seeing we had a pain management center, pain relief center at the school. And I got some PRP injections and I got some, you know, prolotherapy, and I'm doing all this regenerative injection therapy.

And I'm like... And slowly but surely I got better. And I was like, "Okay, this is it. If this c- the amount of pain I was in, if this can help people, this is what I wanna do." So that was where my post-grad focus was in, was regen and injections. So PRP, stem cell, prolo, all these things. So I just wanted, I just wanted to poke people, let them feel better, and walk away.

And so, but there was something h- I realized, and this is all gonna come full circle here in a second, is that I had these two main categories of patients. There were people who were super healthy. They ate right, they're working out, they get enough sleep. And you, they come in with a, you know, an injury, tendonitis.

You inject them. You may never see them again because they're good. But then I had people who were this metabolic mess, where they were obese, insulin resistant, stress, inflammation, and they would never get well with the first injection. It would take a series. And I realized that, wait a minute, am I doing something backwards here?

Then COVID happened. And then I kind of was stuck at home, right? Because from a perspective of people going out and spraining their ankle and doing things that make regen injections a sought-after thing, it slowed down. And that's when it hit me, like, wait a minute, I'm doing something backwards here. And I dove...

That first couple months, I dove into hormones and peptides and I was like, "This is it. This is what I wanna do." And literally opened my first little practice in the back of a med spa in August 2020, man, and the rest is, is history.

[00:08:48] Dr. Brandon Crawford: Good for you. Oh,

that's amazing.

It, it... The-- Yeah, the concepts make me think about my own concepts in the regenerative medicine space. I call it the catalyst regenerative integration where I describe prime, place, activate, integrate. So it's not just about injecting a substance into someone.

You have to prime the individual. Sometimes we even prime the biologic itself. Place it, we laser guide, laser home, then we activate afterwards, and we integrate over time. So, kind of a similar concept, you know, where it, it's not just about putting stuff into someone and, you know, magically healing a joint or a, a metabolic system or whatever, but there's actually some work.

You have to tend to the soil, I tell people, right? A farmer would never just go throw seed and hope for the best, right? They're going to really tend to the soil, fertilize it, make sure it's the right ground to grow the crop in. I mean, that's kind of the concept that you're thinking through, right?

[00:09:49] Dr. Greg Jones: Oh, abso- absolutely. But you know, you think like fresh out of med school, you know, that's not the, you know, you're like, you're just excited to someone's gonna let you put a needle in them, right? It's just that, oh yeah, you, you it's just like, oh my God, let me do this, right? And I think as you grow into medicine and, and we learn more, then you realize that concept you have is the way to go.

But in the beginning, I wasn't thinking like that, man. I was just like, have needle, will travel, you know? And it, it's a big difference. It's a big difference, you know?

[00:10:17] Dr. Brandon Crawford: Right. Big difference, and it's good that you have the perspective, right? So that's amazing. Well, if it's okay with you, can we kinda shift the conversation into the peptide discussion 'cause it's kind of a hot topic. Is that okay?

[00:10:30] Dr. Greg Jones: Absolutely

[00:10:32] Dr. Brandon Crawford: All right, cool. So, how about this? Can you kind of give us like a broad level overview?

What are we talking about when I say peptides or peptide therapy? Like, what is this essentially?

[00:10:43] Dr. Greg Jones: So it's funny you ask this, man, because back in 2019 or 2020 when I first started using peptides, I used to have to explain this multiple times a day 'cause no one knew what a peptide was. No one. Everyone's like, "What's this peptide you're speaking of," right? And so it was a constant education piece with this.

And nowadays a lot of people, they already know because it's so mainstream now. But it's always good to get to the foundation, right? Because a lot of times we're seeing this advertising, this marketing, but no one's ever going back to what these things are and what they do. So peptides by definitions are a sequence of amino acids bound together by peptide bonds.

They act as signaling molecules in the body, so they're telling the body to perform a function. So they're basically binding to receptors, and when they bind to the receptor, depending if it's a G protein-coupled receptor, there's some other types there, it causes this messenger system which eventually gets to the nucleus and then you have transcription.

And in English, it's now gonna tell the cell what to do. So whether that function is increasing collagen, type I collagen, whether it's reducing the production of inflammatory cytokines, whether it's lowering insulin, you know, I'm sorry, lowering glucose via the insulin receptors, which is more of your GLP-1s, all, you know, and neurotransmitter production.

So you have all these varying functions that it's doing, but the peptide itself is not acting like the traditional medication where it's literally causing this direct action. It's more of a signal. It's telling the body what to do. So in many ways, the analogy that I used to use, and I still like using it, it's like if I wanna send-- Brandon, I want you to do something, right?

And I'm gonna send you a text message, right? Like, "Hey, can you go, you know, pick up some ice and bring it to the party?" I'm gonna send that message to you. Now, that text didn't go to the store. It asked you to go do it, right? Whereas with sometimes with medications it's like I'm, I need some ice. I'm gonna send this text, but I didn't, I forgot to not send it to you.

I sent it to everybody, right? And the fact of the matter is sometimes Brandon's gonna get the ice, what we want, but seven other people brought some ice and some people brought some chips and some people brought some salsa. And I was like, "What? What'd you... What is this shit? I didn't ask for that." And that's side effects, right?

It's-- So all these things that you don't want to happen when the medication is being taken. Not saying peptides don't have side effects, but it's a different type of side effect, right? And so that's the big picture is telling the body to perform a function.

[00:13:03] Dr. Brandon Crawford: Absolutely. So it's very specific. It's a signal for a specific pathway, and that brings up the discussion of why it's important to work with someone that understands the signals and the pathways and when to use which peptide and when not to use which peptide, right? And that-- I think that's the challenge that everyone is kind of facing right now is, you know, prior, you know, not that long ago, anyone and their dog could go online and get whatever peptide they wanted and start injecting both them and their dog.

And I know people that did and, and, you know, they just read, "Oh, this is good for inflammation, this is good for cognition, this is good for whatever," right? And so they're doing 10 different injections and, you know, life goes on. So what are your thoughts about that? What how's-- how much should we be guarding this process, I guess is what I'm

[00:13:55] Dr. Greg Jones: That's a good question because that-- The, the i- the issue is this, is that one, the access is still there. So even with-- And we'll probably get into some of the, the recent FDA hearings. It's like you can still go online and get peptides, right? So that, I don't think that's ever gonna really go away. But when it comes down to working with a practitioner, it's a couple things here.

One is knowing your entire health picture, right? Because there are certain peptides, it's like, wait a minute, you... Let's just say someone like friend says, "Oh, I wanna do this peptide. I heard it's really great for gut health," right? It's really great for gut infections, and this peptide is called LL-37. It's an antimicrobial peptide, and you're like, "I wanna do this," right?

But LL-37, if used too long, it can actually overstimulate the immune system. It basically could-- Think of it like revving this up. It can cause inflammation and cause the immune system to be overactive, 'cause that's how it does. But if you don't know that, it's like, "Oh, I'm gonna do LL-37. I'm gonna do a couple months," you may not feel as well.

And then there are cases like even the GLP-1s where knowing the full picture is like, yes, you know about the GI side effects, but if a person has history of gastroparesis, this could be a harmful peptide. So I think the biggest thing is knowing the entire medical picture. The second thing is understanding that dosing does matter and sequencing matters and cycling matters.

So a lot of times you'll see a lot of things online. There are Reddit posts and all these things about how to take it, when to take it, but I think there's a very individualized nature of peptide therapy where it's more of an art form. And last but not least, the key to this as well is that these aren't like vitamins, man.

You know, this isn't like, you know, taking a B, a B complex gummy. It's like, "I'm gonna take this, and here we go." Like, these are cellular functions, and understanding those pathways and how they work is where you can get better results and be more effective in what you do. And this is gonna take me back to this key point here, and this is something I, I really love talking about with other practitioners as well.

And you-- And I think this is gonna speak to you a little bit, too, in what you do in regen medicine, is that not everyone that uses a peptide is gonna see this miraculous response. Just some people will take it like, "Oh, this didn't do anything. I took BPC, it didn't do anything. I took this, it didn't do anything."

It's because y- you-- Let's put it this... I love analogies, Brandon. So this is my thing here. If I'm like, "Hey, let me make some gumbo." Right? I'm gonna make some gumbo, some stew. I'm gonna put these different ingredients in here, and I'm gonna go to the store, and I'm gonna get the, the organic carrots and the grass-fed meat, and I'm gonna do all these things here, and I'm gonna do all these perfect things here.

And now I put all this stuff in my pot and I cook it, and I come out and someone tastes it, and they spit that shit out because the water was dirty. We, we need to take care of the water. It's like, wait a minute here. Like it... You know? And that's the issue. If a person is dealing with metabolic dysfunction, high levels of inflammation, oxidative stress, crappy diet, not sleeping, all those factors you set for foundation, you may not wanna start with some of these peptides.

You may wanna take care of the foundation first. If someone's like, "Hey, I wanna take this peptide for brain fog. I'm having some brain fog. And it's like, "Well, why do you have brain fog?" "Oh, I heard this peptide, Semax per se, can help reduce neuroinflammation." That's great. But the question that we're missing in a lot of these kinda situations is why do you have neuroinflammation? That's not normal, right?

Do you have neuroinflammation because you have leaky gut and lipopolysaccharides are leaving the gut, crossing the blood-brain barrier and causing inflammation in the brain? Do you have neuroinflammation 'cause you're sleeping four hours a night and you're stressed out? Let's think about these things here first, right?

So where I'm going with this is that these peptides aren't magic. You have to set the foundation. You gotta get a good water in your pot before you start throwing all these ingredients in there.

[00:17:36] Dr. Brandon Crawford: Absolutely. But Dr. Jones, it's so much easier just to do my peptide and move on. You mean I really have to live by circadian lifestyle and get enough sleep and eat right and do all these things? Like, I thought this was bypassing that, man. Come

on

[00:17:51] Dr. Greg Jones: I, know, right? It sounds good. I wish. But, but here's the issue, and I think where I like to take it with that is like, look, at the end of the day, it's like if you're in pain, I most likely am gonna say, "Hey man, you gotta wait four months to do all these things before I can get you some different," you know, whether it be integrative therapies, peptides included.

But the key is, is while we're doing these things, there's some work you gotta do on the back end because eventually you're gonna stop injecting yourself. Eventually you're gonna go out of town, like and bring the peptides with you, whatever the case may be. And if we didn't set our intent on fixing the foundation, a lot of times things come back, right?

Or it's only a temporary thing. So I think that's why it's key to take a step back, man. Just not just the peptide. Look at the entire picture

[00:18:36] Dr. Brandon Crawford: Absolutely. So do you think these peptide claims are currently ahead of the science, or do you think that we can really support the clinical use of peptides? And I know that that's a very broad question because we then have to talk about individual peptides. But in general, do you think that we're to the point to where we should be using these peptides clinically and can support that with the science?

[00:19:02] Dr. Greg Jones: so this is a very nuanced question, and the simple answer is yes, we're ahead of the science in many cases because there are not a ton of robust, decades-long clinical trials on human use for a lot of these peptides.

Not saying there aren't human studies, because there are in s- for some, right? But it's, and sometimes it's not for what we use them for, or it's not a ton of trials. But, and the thing is, if you look at that, then it's like, "Wait a minute, I don't have these trials. Why would you use this here?" But then you have to look at the mechanism of action, right?

So the mechanistic data, like, "Hey, how does this work?" And also, you wanna look at the trials that are done, but also there's a lot of clinical information out there that a lot of doctors who have been doing peptides for a while, seeing how their patients respond, doing it safely and smartly. But to answer the question directly, it's like, look, if you're looking for 25 papers on how BPC is gonna help heal elbow tendonitis and golfer's elbow, you're not gonna find it.

It's just not there. And now you have to make a decision on, is this something I'm gonna use with my patient? And that's where transparency comes in because it's very easy to say, "Take this peptide, it's gonna help you." It's another thing to say like, "Hey, this peptide can help lower inflammation, can help heal.

I don't have a ton of human studies on the how... on if this is the case, but this is what I've seen clinically." And it has to be trust between the doctor and the patient to say, "Look, we are going to do this because of these reasons. You've already done NSAIDs. You've already done physical therapy. You don't wanna get a surgery.

Here's an option for you." So that conversation needs to happen. But from a perspective of, you know, can I pull up a bunch of papers? The answer is emphatically, I don't have a ton of papers on a lot of these things here. But I do have mechanisms, I do have the safety data associated with that, and I do have my clinical experience

[00:20:51] Dr. Brandon Crawford: Yeah. And I think that's-- We're very in alignment on that. I mean, we have to have a true informed consent process with our patients, and we have to be able to tell them what we do know, but we also have to be able to tell them what we do not know. That way, there can be a fair risk to benefit assessment for the patient, and it's essentially their choice.

We're just simply giving them options. And that's absolutely how we navigate that. We take our informed consent process, especially in the regenerative medicine space, we take it very, very seriously and especially if we're talking about stem cells, where, you know, stem cells are still the Wild West, essentially, and so we have to be so very transparent about that.

So I, I fully agree with what you just said. So, do you think that restricting pharmacy access like what we've seen, do you think that this has improved safe-- patient safety, or do you think it's really pushed people more into the gray market? What do you, what do you think about this situation?

[00:21:55] Dr. Greg Jones: Oh, you mean we didn't learn ship and prohibition? The answer to that is yes. It has always been this historically, right? Because if you take away-- and this is a complex answer here, but nothing about this is straightforward and simple, man. I would say the direct answer is yes, right? Because if you take away the ability for compound pharmacies to make these peptides for doctors to prescribe them via the compound pharmacies, you block that off.

The reason people-- a lot of people, the reason they're using peptides is because they've been helping them, and also they have not gotten the solutions from the traditional routes, right? It's just like, okay, I don't wanna take Tylenol forever. I don't want to rather be on a medication. I've tried all the gut health things.

I've done these things, and as most people, peptides are not their first entry point into getting better. And now you have a solution that can be safer than some of the medications that can make the body kind of change its processes and things like that to work better. You take that away, and people are not going to say, "Well, I guess that's that.

I guess I'm gonna just live with what I have." No, they may continue, and the sourcing may be in a lot of these kinda gray market research use peptides here. Now, the key here, and I wanna be clear about this, it's like there are different levels to this, right? There are research peptide companies that are doing level of production that's on par with compound pharmacies.

Then there's others that are potentially just taking the, the API from China, putting it in a vial and saying, "Here you go." Right? And so that's the risk here in trying to figure out who's a good guy and who's not is really, unfortunately, shouldn't be the responsibility of a patient that just wants to get help.

So the key to understand here is like, this is why I'm really happy that some of the restrictions are coming back, potentially, depending on what happens in the next few months, where compound pharmacies can have access to it. And now you also have some accountability because if, Brandon, if I give you a peptide and you have a reaction, I can go to that pharmacy and say, "Hey, Brandon had hives.

Here's the lot number. Can you-- can we look into this? Did anyone have that situation?" That they can go to that. Whereas sometimes with a research peptide, especially depending on the company that you get it from, there is no one to call. So if you have a side effect, an incident, an adverse reaction, it's kind of like, good luck, unfortunately, right?

And so I think that safety barrier gets taken away for a lot of people.

[00:24:21] Dr. Brandon Crawford: Absolutely. And, you know, headlines recently they say, "FDA approves six peptides," but that's not actually what happened. Really what, what happened was the Pharmacy Compounding Advisory Committee let's say narrowly recommended six different peptides. They, you know, voted no on one of them.

What are your thoughts on this? Is this really a step forward? Is this kind of, you know, no news? I mean, what's your thought here?

[00:24:47] Dr. Greg Jones: Well, it's news because it's the first step in the process of allowing these peptides to get taken off of category two and allow more access to compounding. Now, I wanna make sure this clarification is made because I think a lot of people say this, you look on social media and all that, the FDA is n-not going to approve any peptides.

Even when we get to the end, they're not gonna approve it because compounded medications by definition are not-- they're not FDA-approved. It's the FDA can allow compounding, put it in a category where y- And to be compounded, to be even more clear about it, there has to be a reason for it. I can't just say, "Hey, let's go make some testosterone and compound it."

It's being compounded in, say, grapeseed oil, MCT oil, for example, because potentially the patient may have a reaction to the commercial form of it. If I wanted to just make an, you know, an example here, like if-- It's like, wait a minute, like, oh, let's use a good example here. Hmm. Let's say oxytocin, right?

Oxytocin is FDA-approved in injectable format, yes. But if I want an oxytocin nasal spray for the delivery method, I can get it compounded. So that being said, that's still not FDA-approved. It's like, hey, but the FDA is going to allow that because there is a reason to do it. Now, fast-forwarding to the peptides here, most of them, even when they-- if they make it through this process, and I'll get to that, they're not gonna have this FDA approval, but it's gonna say, "Hey, we feel this is safe to get compounded for X, Y, and Z," because a lot of these peptide formulations, there isn't a commercial form, right?

And so that... Now let's go back to these PCAC hearings here where they presented seven peptides and, and basically what they're looking for is a recommendation to be made to the FDA to allow them to go into a 503A, which is individualized compound pharmacy production. Meaning that it has to be-- It won't be like, hey, you can get 40 vials of BPC, but it's gonna be when we say 503A, means individualized.

So I want Brandon to be on BPC-157. I'm gonna write a prescription for him. He gets that peptide. So what happens with this process here is a recommendation to say six out of the seven passed. DSIP or double sleep inducing peptide didn't, and think it was kind of a crappy peptide anyway. I wasn't-- I didn't lose any sleep over that pun intended.

[00:27:00] Dr. Brandon Crawford: Pun

[00:27:00] Dr. Greg Jones: pun intended, yeah. And so that being said, it's a recommendation. Now the FDA can be like, "Yeah, thanks. We appreciate that." But those no votes were from the FDA people on the committee. So they may say, "Hey, doctors, pharmacists," you know, people that said yes, that's great, but our people said no, so we're gonna stop it.

Now, I don't know if that's gonna happen. All signs point to There's no guarantee that these things potentially are going to get the approval to be compounded again, but there's no guarantee until that final stamp is on there that says yes. So we're all hopefully anxiously waiting on that, but it is a true first step.

And on top of that, this may open the doors for not just peptides but other compounds that are in this kind of grayish area that are helping people. But you gotta prove there's, that it can be safe, right? It can't just be, "Hey, this is, this compound we wanna use it. Is this safe for people to use?" And I think that's what the decision is gonna come down to the bottom line.

Is it safe for people to use? Is there a, a harmful avenue for these to be made, or can we reduce the risk of this? And that's where we're gonna end up seeing those decisions.

[00:28:07] Dr. Brandon Crawford: Yeah. Well, so I did I've done my training through Dr. Seeds, so through the Seeds Institute. I co-manage with Dr. Seeds quite a bit. I, I really enjoy working with him, and he's got a hu- just a huge amount of knowledge on the topic. But I do remember some of my early courses and he, he was talking about the GHRPs and the GHRHs and he was essentially saying that anyone over 40, I believe is what he said, should be on either a GHRP or a GHRH, so some type of growth hormone secretagogue.

Do you agree with this statement? Is this, A- and of course, he's very, you know, that wasn't a blanket statement. It was a generalized statement, so I don't wanna portray it inaccurately. But what are your thoughts on the growth horn- growth hormone secretagogues?

[00:28:53] Dr. Greg Jones: So kind of sidebar actually that's also one of the peptide certification co- I did the SSRP peptide certification to actually speak at some of the SSRP conferences way, way back when. I say way back when, like three years ago. And so I actually learned a lot, not only from him and the faculty at SSRP, and that was kind of my kind of intro or more laying the foundation for the trainings that I've done with that.

Now that being said, I would say yes with an asterisk, right? Because I think growth hormone peptides can be amazing for deep sleep, for recovery, for cellular function. All the good things we think about, like just from a muscle building, fat loss, recovery standpoint, standpoint, absolutely. There are benefits in cognitive function, cardiovascular health over time.

Now this is all great and good, but is it for everyone? There are some people I would say no to. I would say one is obviously if they have an active malignancy or a high potential risk of cancer, probably wanna avoid that just for the sake of growth hormone IGF-1 potentially cau-- Now, never been proven, never been shown any scientific studies, but when we talk about mechanism, I'm gonna avoid that, right?

Even without any studies, I'm like, "Look, I'm not even gonna run the risk of this getting worse." And obviously, if you're dealing with active malignancy, you should probably be dealing with that and not doing a GHRH anyway, right? Let's get you into remission, into a healthy place. If a person has any type of pituitary damage, because how is it supposed to work if you have a pituitary injury, right?

Or if you've had some type of procedure there, then that's not a good candidate. I think a person who is dealing with some insulin resistance issues because growth hormone, when you look at the science and mechanism, is actually slightly counter-regulatory when it comes to insulin. It can actually cause a ins- crease in that and affect that balance because growth hormone, IGF-1, so I'm also concerned about using it with people that are diabetic un- if they're not in a controlled environment, right?

So you have to re- not saying you can't do it, they just have to be monitored a little bit more closely when it comes to their glucose and in- insulin balance. And there are some people that are literally allergic. They develop allergies or antibodies to the GHRHs, so that's another category as well. Now that's the mechanism.

Now from a perspective of look, if a person is like, "Look, I don't work out, I don't eat healthy," I'm probably not gonna start with a GHRH. So I also feel like there are some foundational things that need to be taken care of. If I feel like they're-- And this comes with testing and knowing the patient, but I also feel like they're dealing with a ton of oxidative stress.

If they're dealing with a lot of free radical damage, any type of oxidative stress is going to affect receptor function, whether it be a growth hormone receptor, whether it be a thyroid receptor. It's just not-- Hormone receptors are all susceptible to oxidative stress, so sometimes people need to deal with that part first before they start going into these relatively expensive peptide therapies.

So I would say yes with an asterisk. It's gonna be beneficial for people over 40 'cause growth hormone production and function reduces, but there are things that need to be done first, and it may not be the right answer for everyone. I know that was kinda long-winded, but it's like I'm agreeing, but I think there are some kind of gates that need to be or boxes that need to be checked before we say yes to everyone over 40

[00:32:08] Dr. Brandon Crawford: Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree with that. And then what about your thoughts on monitoring IGF-1 and if someone has elevated IGF-1, perhaps we shouldn't use one of these growth hormone peptides?

[00:32:20] Dr. Greg Jones: Okay. So, so it's kind of one of those great debates in peptide therapy. Some people don't look at it at all. I do like to check it every few months because one is that, okay, well, there's one thing in having optimal to- you know, on the higher end of the normal range, slightly above it, and watching that IGF-1 increase if they're gonna be on a growth hormone peptide, that's great.

But if their IGF-1 becomes extremely high, you know, saying five hundred, six hundred, you're looking at IGFBP-3, you're looking at this ratio and it's like, wait a minute, this is concerning. This is really, really high because I'm not expecting IGF-1 to get five hundred, six hundred, seven hundred with a peptide.

I have seen it, you know, someone maybe starts in the lower hundreds, gets to like one eighty, one ninety, even two hundred. I can see that. But if it's excessively high, now I'm kinda worried about what else is going on because again, IGF-1, that process has been assoc- Now let me say this.

When it's really, really high, it's been associated with potential malignancies, right? And it's like, wait, am I driving something there? But on the flip side, extremely low IGF-1 is associated with, with cancer. And so at there, it's kind of this U shape here, and I want people to be in the healthy range of that.

That being said, I am monitoring IGF-1. I keep an eye on it. If it gets excessively high, I need to figure out like why is that, right? Because again, if someone like, "Oh, I just had a super crazy workout right before my blood draw," you might see a spike there. Maybe they had a hundred grams of protein, you might see a spike there.

So I wanna make sure all the kind of foundational, the kind of, you know, entering argument of like, why is this high? We've already looked at that. But it's something I feel we should monitor, keep an eye on, but also like don't freak out if they went from like one hundred to like two hundred, right? It's that excessively high I'm worried about

[00:33:59] Dr. Brandon Crawford: Yeah. Right. So I, I have very similar thoughts on that. I, I personally will monitor IGF-1. I, I actually measure IGF-1 on just about all my patients. I have a, a big comprehensive panel. Even my pediatrics, I wanna know it. It gives me a good idea, you know, essentially is someone in a catabolic state or an anabolic state, and then I look at their neurophysiology to correlate.

It's not the only marker I look at for that, but it's, it's one that I definitely look at. Bringing up this concept of pediatrics, which I w- I wasn't even gonna, you know, go into, but I mean, it is a question 'cause I do treat a lot of pediatrics. It is a question that I'm getting a lot of, the use of peptides for pediatrics.

And so, you know, I'm a developmental functional neurologist, so I, I do specialize in neurodevelopmental disorders, and I'm getting a lot of questions about using peptides with autism. What are your thoughts?

[00:34:54] Dr. Greg Jones: Yeah, I, kinda the opposite. I don't really do any pediatrics. Pediatrics is not my specialty here. That being said, I will see some of my patients' kids that are kinda like early teens, mid-teens, late teens. Still considered pediatric, but not like baby, baby pediatrics there. Now, uh, I do feel comfortable using BPC-157 oral, um, for pediatric patients with gut health issues.

I would feel comfortable using the peptide Liraglutide, which helps with-- so xylin agonist can help with gut permeability issues. Those are the two that I've felt comfortable doing with younger patients. But I-- It's funny you say that, man, because I've had patients kinda bring up like, "Hey, my kid's an athlete.

He's not as tall or big and strong as some other kids. Is a growth hormone peptide an option for him?" And I'm basically like, "For me, absolutely not." You know, just because I don't wanna have any impact on their growth plates. I'm not comfortable doing that. Unless they have a diagnosed growth hormone deficiency, then they're gonna be on actual growth hormone.

But using these peptides for some type of competitive advantage with youth athletes is not a path that I'm going to go down. Again, I do feel comfortable with gut health. Uh, some of the other ones, I just-- I would most likely ref- if a kid's like, "Hey, my kid, aut- autism, anxiety, depression issues," I'm-- With the anxiety, depression, I'm always going to gut health and diet from the stop, even when I do encounter that, even with an adult.

But if someone comes and is like, "Hey, you know, I have these issues with my kid," I'm gonna find someone like you, honestly, to refer them over to that has some experience with using that. It's just not in my wheelhouse of comfort to do that. So this is what I get to ask you. Have you been able to use peptides in some of these cases with your kids?

[00:36:34] Dr. Brandon Crawford: So, w- so we have BBC is one thymosin alpha one, obviously with the neuroautoimmunity concerns and issues, and it's relatively safe and whatnot. There will be times when we've actually used a nasal Selank so the nasal spray is Selank. Sometimes C-Max, but I-- we tend to go more towards Selank in the d- the demographics that we have.

If I have some type of, like, really complex case, let's say like a really complex seizure disorder, a really co- like right now I've got a, a really, really severe pediatric brain injury and his, he's how old is he? Probably four or five years old. But because of the brain injury, his testosterone is s- his testosterone's higher than mine.

It's crazy. And so that one, yeah, that one we're, you know, co-manning, co-managing with endocrinology, sending him to Dr. Seeds. I, I will absolutely refer out whenever my comfort level is exceeded as well. So, our practice is really interesting because we get to see some really complex things, and so that's, that's when I do definitely lean on other experts for sure.

But yeah, it's, it's always fun. But yeah, we, we definitely use a, a few different

[00:37:47] Dr. Greg Jones: So

really quick, I wanna ask you before we kinda move on and again, you don't have to get into the specifics here.

When you're dealing with, say, thymosin alpha one or even BPC or the nasal sprays, are you doing a dose adjustment for these smaller children?

[00:38:02] Dr. Brandon Crawford: Absolutely.

[00:38:03] Dr. Greg Jones: Gotcha, gotcha.

[00:38:04] Dr. Brandon Crawford: Yes, absolutely. And what we'll do is we'll go to a dose that's even lower than, you know, what would make sense, and then we're dosing up per tolerance very slow over time. But yes, absolutely

[00:38:19] Dr. Greg Jones: Fair. I know it's kind of a simple question, but I, again, 'cause it's not my wheelhouse, it's like, oh, are we going away from the adult dosing and just, you know, using all that stuff here? So that's good to know as well.

[00:38:30] Dr. Brandon Crawford: Yep, absolutely. And if I have, you know, I've got a little bitty kiddo pediatric brain injury case I actually would just refer out to Dr. Seed specifically for the dosing, and it was even for BPC. So it was for something that's really safe, you know? But if I have a question about it, I don't have confidence, I'm gonna send out, I'm gonna get, you know, get his input on it. is that kind of one of your go-tos? Like, what do you think about BPC?

[00:38:57] Dr. Greg Jones: It's one of my favorites when it co- 'cause it's so versatile, man. Like oral BPC, we use that for a lot of gut health cases, use it for a lot of ex- you know, athletic performance recovery, using it for injury recovery, using it for acute injuries. There's some protocols I use where we will do like a higher dosing range of it for post-surgery, p- post-surgical recovery or post-injury, and it's been one of those peptides we've seen gr- Now, does everyone respond to it?

No. Just like we said, there's no perfect 100% success rate with any peptide, but we do see great responses with it, and I li- I love the versatility of it that we get to use. Yeah.

[00:39:34] Dr. Brandon Crawford: Yeah. It's interesting, you know, I, I use BPC, but I also use TB4. And for example, I was using BPC for, oh, a long time using it for whether it be, you know, recovery or gut issues or whatever's going on. And then I kinda stopped responding to it. I would go for a long run, my body would hurt for several days, and I switched to TB4 and actually got that almost, almost immediate response from TB4.

So a- as soon as I made that switch, it was just really amazing. But then we also have TB4 versus TB500 and they have different use cases. Do you, do you have a preference over TB4 versus

TB500?

[00:40:13] Dr. Greg Jones: I tend to like Thymosin Beta-4 or TB4 better because it's the full sequence of the peptide and it's an-- You know, TB500 is a synthetic fragment. It's like seven amino acids of the TB4. And TB500, again, if you look at some of the mechanistic data and the studies on how it works, it's basically doing the cell migration part of it, so that's helping with some of the pain, inflammation of that nature.

But I like Thymosin Beta-4 because I feel like you're getting that plus some of the immune system benefits, the immune modulatory benefits as well, cardiovascular benefits. All these things have been shown in some of those, you know, mechanism studies of TB4. I think you're getting all of that. So you're getting more broad spectrum kinda thing.

It's kind of like, The analogy I kinda use is like, 'cause we're doing this video here, it's like TB4 is like the entire video, the whole YouTube video. TB500 is kinda like a clip of it, right? And you may get a lot of information from that clip. It's like, wow, this is really key information. I really could use this.

But that clip is part of the entire video where you may be getting more education out to the person. That's how I look at TB4 versus TB500.

[00:41:17] Dr. Brandon Crawford: I love your analogies.

I think That's great

[00:41:19] Dr. Greg Jones: That's how, that's how I see the world, man. I see the world through analogies. Like, how does this... How can I make this make sense to myself, you

[00:41:24] Dr. Brandon Crawford: Yeah,

That's great. What's your favorite mitochondrial peptide? I'm a big mitochondria guy

[00:41:29] Dr. Greg Jones: Yep. I will have to say I'm still Team MOTS-C.

[00:41:33] Dr. Brandon Crawford: Okay

[00:41:34] Dr. Greg Jones: And again, I know SS 31 has been great for a lot of people, and I see its place, but when it comes down to it, MOTS-C is where I've seen some of the better benefits in metabolic function, body composition, energy just overall longevity.

So it's still my number one. SS 31, I use it in more spot cases. Like, okay, you have chronic fatigue, your long COVID patients, if I know they have severe mitochondrial dysfunction, if I can see that. When it comes to testing mitochondrial function, it's difficult, right? Because there's no, like, direct test for that. Now we were talking offline about the ME screen, which is a test where... I'm evaluating it too. I actually just ordered the first one for myself, so I always put myself through the ringer first because I would love to see that.

Now indirectly, if you look at 8-OHdG, I think 8-hydroxydeoxyguanosine, I may have butchered that, but that's a measure for oxidative stress. And if I can see that you have high levels of oxidative stress, I mean, I can indirectly say you probably have some mitochondrial dysfunction, right? And the other test I can give you indirect is a citrate.

Uh, and I get citrate through the metabolic vulnerability index test through LabCorp. And the theory from the people who developed it is if you have a high citrate, it can indicate mitochondrial dysfunction because if you have high citrate, essentially you're saying the Krebs cycle is not doing Krebs cycle things.

Citrate's building up, and if the Krebs cycle isn't optimal, the mitochondria electron transport chain won't be optimal. So I know that's pulling some strings here, and the hi- the more you pull that string, the thinner it gets, so to speak. But that's more, you know, objectively. Subjectively, you're looking at all the energy things, the recovery issues, brain...

You're looking at the overall picture of, "I feel crappy. Can this help me feel better?" But at the same time, a lot of things where a lot of people like SS 31 is like, I can't just say, "Here, take some MitC," if we haven't addressed your inflammation, potential mitochondrial dysfunction, because it may not work as well, or it could make that mitochondria more dysfunctional.

That was a long-ass answer. I could've just said MitC, Brandon. I'm sorry,

[00:43:33] Dr. Brandon Crawford: You know, and so for me, I actually went more SS 31 for my own personal use for a period of time. But it was really just because MOTC gave me like a big rash, and over time it got like real nodular and I just, I didn't respond very well to it. Uh, so I went SS 31, it did the job.

Uh, it's not something I stayed on for long. I just used it for period of time. So I really liked it. But yeah, I hear ya.

[00:43:58] Dr. Greg Jones: I've been doing some cycling. Personally, I've been doing I'll do a month of SS 31, and then I'll do a month or two of MOTS-C as part of, like, my own personal mitochondria protocol just 'cause it's like, okay, this isn't gonna hurt me. And I do feel pretty good on SS 31, but I will tell you that the MOTS-C has felt better for me after the SS 31.

But again, you know, it might-- And also, yeah, I think sometimes people get MOTS-C, sometimes it's the pH of it. Some people are more sensitive to that. So I wouldn't give up it all the way, but, you know, you gotta do what feels good. You don't need knots, man. You don't

[00:44:29] Dr. Brandon Crawford: Yeah, absolutely. Do you feel like there's a certain peptide or even a group of peptides that are just over-hyped and not really supported, and we need to just kinda stop using them or stop talking about them?

[00:44:40] Dr. Greg Jones: Well, I ju- I don't know if it's like category-wise. Like I never really saw a good response to the DSIP and I tried it in a few patients, just never really saw it. The concept, the theory is great, but in action I didn't really see it that well. I think that there are some peptides that are being marketed as follistatin inhibitors.

I have not seen a ton of response clinically, and again, it's v- we don't use them, just talking to p- you know, practitioners who have or people that have used them. They seem to be extremely painful, and the response just hasn't been there. So those I'm not as well... And ag- and the other category, and some of these newer ones too there are some klotho peptides being released in some of the research spaces.

I just don't think we're there yet to be using klotho kind of like broadly at this time. So not the biggest fan of that one so far. Trying to think what else. I mean, so it's so case by case, man, you know, where I've seen so many good responses to a lot of peptides as well. But I feel like the ones I just mentioned are the ones that I'm just not seeing it just yet.

[00:45:43] Dr. Brandon Crawford: Yeah. The SIP is hard. Yeah, I think it's maybe helped like one, maybe two people, and I kinda have just stopped. So I've kinda gotten off that bus. So I, I agree with you there.

[00:45:53] Dr. Greg Jones: Some people are on the fence about AOD or the anti-obesity drug, I think 9604. And I will say that it failed the clinical trials of it, that's why it kinda got abandoned. And I've used it in some patients. I can tell you when I was using it by itself, I didn't see a ton. But when I've used it with other metabolic peptides, whether it be a GLP-1 or whether it be a GHRP whether it be even the-- Man, I mean, I would even go as far as saying some of the, i'm drawing a blank here. Some of the mitochondrial peptides like MitC or 5-MEO-1MQ. I've seen great responses with AOD, and I've had some cases where I was like, "You know, I wanna give this a try," and they couldn't do-- For whatever reason, they were, you know, not responding well to GHRPs. And I was like, "Well, let's do this," injecting it twice a day.

Because I actually saw that it was a lecture, I believe. It might have been SSRP. I saw a lecture somewhere where they were like, "Oh." It basically said the same thing. Monotherapy, not so much. But when they've done it multiple times a day or twice a day, they were seeing some response to it, and I actually was seeing that in some patients as well.

So AOD's a tricky one. I think if you just put someone on AOD by itself, you may not see anything. But using it as a, kind of a synergistic protocol, I think you may see some benefits. But everyone's different, man. All I say is case by case, person by person. You gotta look at the whole person and everything else they're doing.

[00:47:06] Dr. Brandon Crawford: Thoughts on Sloop 332?

[00:47:07] Dr. Greg Jones: Mm. Ah, good old Sloop. I've had some patients use it, and they've done well. I've also had some patients use it, and they're like, "This ain't doing it. This ain't it." And personally, personal experience, I tried it for a few months. I didn't really get a ton from it. That's just personal experience.

Not saying it doesn't work, it's not effective. But there's also this debate, man, because there aren't a ton of human trials in it. And I know a lot of times when you look at the compound pharmacies, they're doing like 100 micrograms up to 1.5 milligrams. But it's interesting when you look at some of the studies that...

And again, you're trying to translate h- you know, animal to human, it seemed like the dose was really low. I just don't... I don't know enough about it to dose it that high with anyone. It just-- I don't think we're there yet. But again, personally, didn't see a ton, but we do have some people that, that really like it.

Uh, what about yourself?

[00:47:56] Dr. Brandon Crawford: I tried it for, I don't know, I guess I gave it two months. Same thing, didn't really see anything. If anything, I was starting to wonder if it was kind of bringing my mood down. I was-- I don't know. So I stopped it, and that kind of recovered, so I don't know. If anything, no response, maybe a weird kind of cognitive response that I didn't really like. Anything else you want to add to the conversation before we sign off

[00:48:17] Dr. Greg Jones: Yeah, I mean, I think we covered a lot, man. I, I think the biggest key here is that, again, if in a perfect world we would have access to all these peptides and someone could work with a practitioner who's been trained in it, can monitor it, make sure it's safe, make sure they're doing the right things with it, not just using it as this, as this band-aid or this magic wand, as part of a whole person protocol.

That's the perfect world. That being said, there are trainings available and certifications available, and not everyone is doing that. But at the same time, I implore the practitioners who wanna get smart in peptides to go get trained, go get s- whether it be the certification route, whether it be a training course, because you wanna know not only, like, what you're seeing, but what are, what are other practitioners seeing?

How can I get better at this? Because there is an art form to it. So that's kind of my takeaway is I want everyone to be smart about these things and understand that it's part of an entire protocol to get someone better and optimized

[00:49:15] Dr. Brandon Crawford: How can people find you and learn more about you and your services you offer and all the things?

[00:49:20] Dr. Greg Jones: My clinic is Enovative Wellness Center here in Phoenix, Arizona, and our website is Enovative, spelled with a E-N-O. It's funny, I, I have a story about it. I wasn't trying to be cute. Enovative wasn't available, and I wanted that name, so I had to g- I had to get f- fancy with the spelling. So it kinda worked out because it's unique, right?

So that's our clinic site. I also host a podcast, the Dr. Jones Optimization Academy podcast. That's on YouTube and Spotify and all the places, all the things. And I gotta get you on there as a guest too, man. You know, I feel like, you know, it'd be kinda cool to hear your story and talk about regen medicine and longevity and all these cool things too.

I try to speak as often as I can. I just like speaking and educating, man. So I do so two of the organizations that I'm currently speaking for more regularly, there is ISSCA, which is the International Stem Cell Association, and I think I've spoken with them like seven, eight, nine, 10 times, and they have a big conference coming up in September their global summit.

And also me and, uh, another practitioner, Dr. Jason Penchak, we teach a peptide certification course for them, and it is available online as well. And then last but not least, man, uh, I'm on Instagram at all spelled out, drjones_drjones. Again, not trying to be cute. Shit wasn't available. I had to go Indiana Jones on it, Dr. Jones. Dr. Jones. But it worked out well. It worked out well. And last but not least, man, I just launched an online supplement store. Um, I don't have my own brand per se. I just wanted to have a place where people, they're like, "Hey, what supplements do you use for this?" And these are things that I either use or recommend to my patients here.

So these things I'm pretty vested in and how they work. So we just kinda set it up as a, you know, here's the supplements I love, that I use. There's some unique products on there. There are some things that are on there you may not find anywhere else. So hopefully people can check that out. And it's under drjonessupplements.com.

[00:51:07] Dr. Brandon Crawford: We'll put all that information, all the links and everything that was just mentioned, we'll put it in the show notes and all the other places that you need to find it. So thank you for the conversation today, man. I mean, this conversation was needed. I think I could pick your brain for probably a few more hours, but I know that we both have patients to get to and lives to get to. So if this information resonated with you, if, uh, this sounds like something that can help you or someone that you know, love, care about, please share it with them. That's the reason that we're talking about this today.

We're doing this to help others. So, thanks again for your time. I've thoroughly enjoyed this. And everyone, we will see you next time.